Culture & Compliance Chronicles: Sleep, Science & Success—Unlocking Chronoleadership

At a glance: Click the links below to advance directly to the corresponding sections of the transcript:

• [1:15] About Camilla
• [5:50] What Makes For Good Sleep
• [7:54] Busting Sleep Myths
• [10:27] Understanding Your Chronotype
• [14:57] Social Jetlag
• [21:54] Designing An Organization To Get The Best Out Of Diverse Chronotypes
• [27:59] Making Changes To Your Own Patterns
• [31:21] Key Takeaways

Nitish Upadhyaya: Welcome back to the Culture and Compliance Chronicles, the podcast that gives you new perspectives on legal, compliance, and regulatory challenges faced by organizations and individuals worldwide. The clue is in the title. Culture is at the heart of everything.

It’s the endlessly shifting patterns that govern our environment and behaviors. The magic is in amplifying certain patterns and dampening others. Let’s see if we can pique your curiosity, get you to challenge some of your perceptions, and give you space to think differently about some of your own challenges. I’m Nitish Upadhyaya, and I’m joined by Amanda Raad and Richard Bistrong. Hello, Amanda and Richard.

Amanda Raad: Hello.

Richard Bistrong: Hello, Nitish.

Nitish Upadhyaya: And last time we were out recording with Rebecca Mayfield we talked about bringing creativity and fun back into compliance, from compliance training to how you get your people to think about compliance in the first place. And Richard, who do we have joining us today?

Richard Bistrong: So, today it is a pleasure to introduce a true all star in our world of thought leadership, Camilla Kring, who’s joining us from Denmark. Welcome, Camilla.

Camilla Kring: Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.

[1:15] About Camilla

Richard Bistrong: Well, thank you for joining us. So, allow me to share a bit about Camilla. And apologies, because for sure I’m going to forget one of her many accolades and accomplishments. But I want to save time for the podcast, so I will do a bit of an abbreviation.

So, Camilla is the owner of the consulting firm Super Navigators. She received her masters in engineering and PhD in work-life balance from the Technical University of Denmark. She’s author of multiple books that address chrono-biology, which we’re going to talk about, and making chrono-biology and chronoleadership accessible to broad audiences, and to illuminate its implications for modern work. And today we’re going to talk about her most recent book: Chronoleadership: How to Create Healthier and More Productive Rhythms in Your Work and Life. And in her book, and in her work, Camilla explores how biological rhythms shape performance, well-being, and work-life balance. Her research and writing translate complex science into practical insights that help individuals and organizations align work with natural cycles for healthier and more sustainable productivity.

Her thought leadership offers such a fresh, science-driven perspective on how timing—the timing of our lives, not just our effort—shapes human potential. Camilla’s insights have been featured in The New York Times, the BBC, and The Guardian.

She’s also a regular contributor to Fast Company. And Camilla, if any of this sounds familiar, it’s because I lifted it right from Thinkers50, where we all congratulate you for being on the 2026 Thinkers50 Radar cohort, of which, as they shared, this is the Oscars of management thinking. So, a hearty congratulations to you for being on the Thinkers50 Radar, and we’ll put that in the show notes for everyone to see. And now I’m going to hand it over to Nitish for some lightning-round questions.

Nitish Upadhyaya: I’m hoping Richard hasn’t stolen your thunder here, but let’s do a rapid-fire round to help the audience get to know you a little bit more. Give us three things we should know about you.

Camilla Kring: I’m a late chronotype myself. I’m actually peaking here in the afternoon and evening. I have twins. I have a boy and a girl, an early chronotype and a late chronotype. And then I just love wearing red, black, and white. I also had my own shirt company at a time.

Nitish Upadhyaya: Wow. That was unexpected. I love that last one. What’s one thing that you’re curious about?

Camilla Kring: I’m really curious about how we can create more time structures in our society, supporting more diversity in our family rhythms, our work rhythms, and also in our chronotypes. More than 80% of the population are woken up by an alarm clock, so it’s very problematic that we have some old time architecture from our agrarian society and industrial society. This, “Working 9 to 5” that we have to check in and check out and fit into a structure. How can we create time around people instead of forcing people into some time rhythms that make them sick?

Nitish Upadhyaya: I mean, if we needed an advert for the podcast, that is it. What’s the last thing that surprised you?

Camilla Kring: I think it surprised me how long a time it takes, for example, to create later starting times in schools. We have had data for teenagers written since 2004 where we actually know that teenagers are late chronotypes. They go to bed later, get up later, even in societies without electricity.

They have a language for their teenagers, who are going to bed later and get up later. So, I really don’t understand why it takes a long time to implement a later starting time in the school system so our children can get the sleep they need.

Also, the rapid-eye-movement sleep, the REM sleep, is so important for our creativity, for our learning. And we have that in the end of our sleep. So, we take, actually, the REM sleep for our children, for our teenagers, for the future workers. That’s something I really don’t understand why it takes a long time.

[5:50] What Makes For Good Sleep

Richard Bistrong: I’ll tell you what, Camilla, as we talk about chronoleadership, chronotypes, and sort of the chrono architecture, the main thread of your work and your leadership, I guess we should start with sleep. What makes for the perfect night of sleep, if there is such a thing, as you would define it? And what are the components of a good night of sleep? Let’s start there.

Camilla Kring: There are two dimensions of sleep. One thing is the sleep duration. Do you sleep enough? That’s very individual. Some people need seven hours of sleep a night. Some people need nine hours of sleep a night. Einstein slept 10 hours per night.

So, we have sleep duration and then we have our sleep and awake rhythm. So, it’s about finding your optimal sleep window. When is it best for you to sleep? So those are the two dimensions of sleep, and both of them are very important. So, do you sleep enough? And do you sleep at the right time?

Richard Bistrong: And just one clarifying question, and we’ll put this in the show notes. There was a New York Times article that I shared with you that also talks about the stability of your sleep. That having it repetitive in terms of when you’re going to sleep every night also impacts the quality of your sleep. Any thoughts? I mean, the article just came out. Any thoughts on that?

Camilla Kring: It’s totally right. And the problem is that 80% of the population are woken up by an alarm clock. And you’re born with your chronotype. It’s not something you choose. So, for example, my sleep window is around midnight to 1:00 in the night. And then I will get up between 8 and 9 in the morning, if I can be in sync with my own consistent sleep schedule.

A lot of people actually, if they could be in their own rhythm, they will be out of sync with society’s rhythm. So, the problem is that a lot of people cannot be in a consistent sleep rhythm. And that means that they actually get a lot of health problems.

[7:54] Busting Sleep Myths

Amanda Raad: So, we’re so fortunate that there is data and information out there about sleep, as you just alluded to earlier. That we’re not acting quite fast enough on that data. But, also there are so many myths and misinformation about sleep. So, can we do a little bit of myth-busting? What are three myths about sleep that you think we should be aware of?

Camilla Kring: I think there’s a lot of myth about the early riser paradigm. We have a lot of moral thinking also from our agrarian society that we are early to bed and early to rise, that makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise. The early bird catches the worm.

You have a lot of sayings. In Italy they say, “If you sleep you will not get a fish.” So we have a lot of morals and myth in our societies. Also, almost all management books are about you have to start with the most important task early in the morning.

And that is not true. It’s true if you’re a morning person. Then you should start with the most important task. But if you are a late riser, if you are a late chronotype, you should do your most complicated task in the afternoon or evening.

So that’s a myth. And then we have also maybe a saying that you get your best sleep if you sleep between 10 in the evening and 6 in the morning. And that’s not true, because human beings are different and we have individual sleep windows at the timings that are best for us to sleep. And it’s only 5% of the population who have an optimal sleep window at that time. So that’s also a sleep myth.

And I think all the things there are around the 5 a.m. club, I call it the early-riser propaganda, so the last thing I will say here is that it should actually be on the back side of that book that if you are a late riser if you could actually die if you start to get up at 5 a.m. in the morning. So don’t implement that if you’re a late chronotype. Do that if you’re an early chronotype.

Amanda Raad: You do see me laughing, Camilla, because I have been having quite a dispute with my partner about this 10-6 sleep window. And I think you just crushed it so that he is right and I am wrong. But I’m going to acknowledge it, so thank you.

[10:27] Understanding Your Chronotype

Nitish Upadhyaya: Camilla, I think I certainly am an early riser. That has just been me, and I’m pretty comfortable with that. It’s one of the reasons why working late nights as a lawyer was very difficult, whereas I’m very happy to get up at 5 a.m. and work.

So, we talked about some of these chronotypes. You talked about night owl, early riser. Give us more of a sense of what is involved with these. And people might start to recognize in your description themselves, and maybe that’s a starting point for removing some of the stigma that goes with one or the other.

Camilla Kring: Yeah, fantastic. So let’s just look at the distribution. In the distribution from the Munich Chronotype Questionnaire by Professor Till Roenneberg, he has calculated more than 300,000 people’s chronotypes. Where we have 30% early chronotypes, we have 30% intermediate chronotypes, and 40% late chronotypes.

And our society primarily supports the early chronotypes. But there’s actually more intermediate and late chronotypes. If you are a morning person, as you are, Nitish, then you get the best energy in the morning. When you get up you can go directly from bed to work. And some early chronotypes feel that the day is over when it’s midday. They feel that they have peaked; they have top-performed. And most early chronotypes have a fantastic life from Monday to Friday if they work daily hours. But then they really don’t look forward to Friday evening when they get their late chronotype friends over for dinner and they never go home.

Because research shows that if you are an early chronotype you sleep very well from Monday to Friday, but you sleep less on the weekend. If you are a late chronotype, you have a very bad week from Monday to Friday, where you postpone a lot of sleep pressure in front of you, and then you will sleep more on the weekend.

That’s classic late chronotype. But as a late chronotype, you are having your best energy in the afternoon or evening. And some people even have the best energy later than that. So that’s also the difference. If you are in a relationship, an early chronotype and a late chronotype, I always say you should go on a date in the middle of the day. And that’s why we have invented brunch. That’s breakfast for late chronotypes and it’s lunch for the early chronotypes.

Richard Bistrong: Camilla, taking in those three types, the early, the middle, and the late, and by the way for our listeners today, at the back of Camilla’s book there’s a questionnaire and you can take it and rate yourself if you’re unsure. So, it’s a wonderful set of questions to take. But this leads us and brings us to the main theme of your book and work, in that, as you shared, no matter what chronotype we are, we live in this 9-5 world. Where does that bring us? Where does that leave us, Camilla?

Camilla Kring: The thing is that when 80% are woken up by an alarm clock, it’s not only that we are interrupting our sleep. But when we are woken up by alarm clocks we live out of sync with our internal clock. So, all of us are born with an internal clock telling us when to sleep and when to be awake. And researchers believe that it’s a part of the human evolution. When we were living outside it’s been very good for our survival that some people have been going to bed early and get up early and other people go to bed late and get up late.

Research in chrono-biology shows that when you live out of sync with your biological clock then it has a negative impact on your health. For example, there’s a higher risk of cancer, diabetes, also heart diseases, mental diseases. For example, from Professor Russell Foster, he has in his book Life Time also where he says that living out of sync with our internal clock has a negative impact on our health.

And, for example, being a late chronotype in our society, research shows that you have 10% higher risk of dying sooner than if you are born as an early chronotype just because of society’s time architecture and this working 9-5, and also the school system primarily supports the early chronotypes.

[14:57] Social Jetlag

Amanda Raad: Camilla, in your book you talk about social jetlag. And we spend a lot of time talking about all kinds of social impacts and culture and in the workplace, but also in your personal life because all of that has an impact, obviously, with the workplace, too. Can you just tell us a little bit about social jetlag and the impact that it can have?

Camilla Kring: Yeah. The way you calculate your social jetlag in your life is by the midpoint of sleep on a workday and on a free day. So, for example, on a workday, if you go and sleep from midnight to 6 in the morning, then you have a sleep midpoint at 3 in the night.

For example, in the weekend if you then go to bed at 2 in the night and get up at 10 in the morning, then you have a sleep midpoint at 6. So, then you will have three hours of social jetlag. And some studies show that just if you have one hour of social jetlag in your life the chance of being overweight increases with 33%.

Amanda Raad: 33% for one hour?

Camilla Kring: Yeah.

Amanda Raad: What is the science behind that? You also mentioned that it can lead to an increased risk of diabetes and all. But is there more you can say on kind of the linkage?

Camilla Kring: Chrono-biology is medical research. In 2017 it was three chrono-biologists who won the Nobel Prize in medicine. And we have a master clock deep inside in our brain. And one of the important signals to our master clock in the brain is called suprachiasmatic nucleus, or just SCN, is that you get daylight.

So, therefore it’s important to get 20 minutes daylight before midday. And you need to go outside, because even if it’s a cloudy day you get 10,000 lux. If it’s a sunny day you get 100,000 lux. And then you get the contrast between light and darkness.

The reason why we have an internal clock is because we live here on planet Earth. And the planet Earth has a rotation of a 24-hour day and night cycle. So, all plants and animals and humans have this internal clock. All your cells in your body have an internal clock. But it’s controlled by your master clock in your brain. So, if you don’t get this light signal and dark signal, then your internal clock is out of sync with the Earth’s rotation around its own axis.

So, this cell, when we talk about chronobiology, it’s research done with a lot of mice. And it is a field where, for example, you can see the implications in chrono-medicine and chrono-pharmocology. I have been in the field since 2003, where I read the first article about a clock gene called PER3 controlling if you’re a morning person or evening person.

And then I’m not a morning person. So, when I was reading this article I decided to have new working hours in my life. So, I was implementing working from midday to midnight and not starting earlier than that. But it is something where you can actually get a genetic test, also.

You can go to BodyClock.Health. It’s a German scientist, Achim Kramer, who has invented an RNA test where you take some hair roots out of your head and send them to a laboratory in Berlin. And then you get a report about when is best for you to work, when is best for you to eat. That’s chrono-nutrition. When it’s best for you to exercise. So, everything. Your master clock is upper level. It’s controlling your hormones, your high performance. It’s controlling everything.

So, I believe that chrono-biology, and if we can apply chrono-biology into our education system and work system, we will improve both productivity and life quality in the future.

Amanda Raad: That’s fascinating. And I now would like to actually do the actual scientific study and figure out where I am versus where I think I am. But I think what I also hear you saying when you described the social jetlag is a little bit tying, Richard, to what you brought up at the beginning of the podcast with regard to consistency. That maybe, even if you aren’t having the perfect sleep period for your sleep, that there is something to not constantly changing it between the week and the weekend. Is that fair, that it loses consistency?

Camilla Kring: Yes. Exactly. Because if you could be a late chronotype and you could go to bed, for example, at 1:00 in the night and getting up at 9 in the morning, then you will have zero social jetlag. If you could live in that consistency from Monday to Sunday, or the whole year, that would be the best for you. Totally, yes. You’re right.

Amanda Raad: But even if you can’t get to the right place, so you are a late chronotype but you’re living in today’s world, then is it better to be consistent or to get that catch-up sleep and adjust on the weekends? What does the research say there?

Camilla Kring: Chrono-biology will mean it’s best to get the sleep also on the weekend because the problem is that the society’s time architecture is not supporting your biology. We can’t change our biology, but we can change our society. And we can change our work places. And I hope for the future, also, that we will not wake up our children. That we will not wake up our small children. Because we are destroying their relationship to their body. And the more they can be in sync with their internal clock, the more they can improve their health. But they can also improve their productivity and their creativity. And I have given my own children a language for their rhythm very early in their life. And also my daughter is going to bed one hour later than my son because she is not tired. And I have met so many grownups who don’t have any connection to their body. They live on in their head, and they only feel their body when they’re on holiday. And then they get a flu.

So, my hope for the future, and also for grownups, is that people try to reconnect to their ground rhythm. What is your ground rhythm? What is your sleep and awake cycle? I have been in a nurturing home where a lot of elderly people, they have dreamt 30 years of their work lives in sleeping in. It’s a myth that older people are waking up early.

[21:54] Designing An Organization To Get The Best Out Of Diverse Chronotypes

Nitish Upadhyaya: There’s so much to unpick there. One of the threads that I would really like to pull on is the organizational design piece. So, you say we can’t change our clocks, our internal body clocks. They’re all quite unique. But we can change the architecture of our lives, of our organizations. And you argue for chrono equity in your book. What can we realistically do about this now? What are the principles that organizations can apply?

Camilla Kring: I have been working with chronoleadership in practice the last 20 years in 17 countries, organizations in 17 countries. So, I also have a lot of experience in implementing a chrono-inclusive work culture. And you can also do very small steps.

First step is awareness. First step is that we acknowledge that chronotypes exist. That some people are most productive at 8 in the morning. That some people are most productive at 4 in the afternoon. And also, that if you are a leader, that you also dare to share your own chronotype. And that we start, for example, by mapping the chronotypes in our teams and place meetings where it actually benefits most people.

So, when I talk about chrono equity, it doesn’t mean that everyone could work whenever they want. It is also about how we can create more fair conditions so different chronotypes actually can contribute with their best.

So, for example, it could be not placing meetings at 8 in the morning. It could be that we place meetings at 9 or 10. It could be that we think about if we have free seating. That it’s not all only the early chronotypes who get the parking spot, who gets the best free seatings nearby a window. Because a study shows that if you sit next to a window in a workday you get 45 minutes more sleep than if you sit in the middle of the room because you only get 300 lux. But sitting next to a window you get 3,000 lux. So there’s a lot of unfairness built into the system.

So the more we are aware about how we can create chrono-inclusive workplaces, and it could be the free seating, it could be the parking spots, it could be the food in the canteen, and also in our teams, for example, if you are a leader, that you are aware about, “Maybe I should not place the meetings at 8 in the morning because I’m an early chronotype myself. Maybe I should be more chrono-inclusive in the way that I create time architecture for my team and also for my organization.”

This is about being the time architects of the future. That’s something that I am really thinking a lot about, how leaders can be time architects so people can get more autonomy over their time.

Research from Judy Wajcman in her book Pressed for Time, she says that when we have autonomy over our time it’s directly linked to well-being and life satisfaction.

Amanda Raad: It kind of sounds like this is everyone’s responsibility, right? Because to some extent we have to all individually take some responsibility for figuring out what our chronotype is, and trying to adhere to that best we can. But then it’s really also about, within an organization, making the space for people to share that and thinking about new and different ways. But are there particular functions within an organization or particular messaging that you think really needs to be on the forefront in order to bring this to life?

Camilla Kring: Yes. I think there is a lot of stigmatizing. For example, research shows that just by showing up early in a workplace you get higher performance evaluations than by showing up later. So, one thing is also that when you are a leader, I think it’s a leader responsibility also for the CEO and for the executive leadership team, because this is about culture. It’s about creating a chrono-inclusive culture where you can be you and I can be me. But also in daring to share our rhythm.

For example, I talk about energy animals. Some people are peaking one time a day. I call them dromedaries. They are peaking one time a day. If you are a camel, then you peak twice. Maybe you have a morning peak and after lunch it’s going down. And then you get another peak. Then you are a camel. You can be an early camel. You can be a late camel. The thing is some people maybe have a very low energy level from 1 in the afternoon to 40 in the afternoon.

You only dare to share your low peaks if you have a culture of psychological safety, if you have a culture where you can speak up, as Megan Wright says, and you have a culture of trust, from Frances Frei and Anne Morriss, their book Unleashed. Also where there’s authenticity, empathy, and also logic in the leadership decision.

This is something where you have to talk about chronoleadership from the top because there’s a lot of stigmatizing in being a late chronotype. And you cannot be a late chronotype in organizations if it’s not something where you can feel absolutely safe also by showing up at the workplace at 10 a.m. and not get those comments, "Well, are you joining us today? I didn’t know you’re working part-time." Because those comments are creating guilt in people. And people feel that they have to explain themselves.

[27:59] Making Changes To Your Own Patterns

Richard Bistrong: Your story, this challenge, reminds me of a talk. I’m dating myself a little bit. But Colin Powell, who had a military background, I forget which president, but he became the secretary of state. And his first stay at the State Department headquarters he said, “Don’t think you can impress me by coming here early and staying late.”

He said, “The most important thing is that you get your work done.” And someone said, "Well, what will impress you?" And he said, "Do 100 pushups." So, a little bit of humor to start.

But Camilla, this is a societal challenge. It's a challenge in your family. It's a challenge in our education system for all of us to be time architects. I love that word. But for our listeners today, and we're thinking maybe more of the workplace, how can they start small just to see if it’s possible to make this chrono equity and chronoleadership work in some part of the organization? Can you give us maybe two or three actionable steps that we can take here?

Camilla Kring: First step will be to test your own chronotype. And we can test that chronotype. It could be an evening, morningness questionnaire. So’ you get this awareness about, “What is my chronotype?” Step number two, almost all people are part of a small team. So, you can share your chronotype, take a collective reflection round in your team, talk about your chronotypes. And when you have this talk about your chronotypes you can decide when should we have meetings. But also when people are aware about your chronotype, they also know why are you, for example, showing up at 9:30. “Oh, it’s because you are more a late chronotype.” “Why do you start sending emails out at 4 in the morning?” “It’s because you’re an extreme early chronotype.”

So, it’s also about acceptance of each other’s differences. I think that’s very important. That will be a small step, Richard, that we start with the awareness. Also know your own chronotype, and then do a small exercise with your team.

Richard Bistrong: Yeah, and find the overlaps, right?

Camilla Kring: Yes, exactly.

Richard Bistrong: And just having gone through this process myself, it’s fun. This is not a grueling process. Everyone likes to talk about sleep. And it’s actually a fun and engaging, I think, team exercise to go through this and to talk about it. It’s very enlightening. So, I think that’s a great way to say, “Well, I can’t change the time architecture of my entire organization. But I work with a team of 12. Let’s see what we can do.”

Camilla Kring: Even if you’re not the leader, you can go to your leader and say, “Well, is it possible that we can take a round? I have this link to this chronotype test. It’s free. We can do the test and then in our next meeting we can have a chat about each other’s chronotype.”

[31:21] Key Takeaways

Nitish Upadhyaya: And it can be even simpler than that as well. Amanda and I and the rest of our team did this with the new joiners a few months ago. We got to a room and we said one side of the room is early risers; one side of the room is late risers. And just stand on a scale of early to late where you like to rise and where you like to work. And it was such a nice way to then open up some of those stories and those discussions.

I am an early riser. And for years on my emails I’ve always had, “I’m sending you an email early. You don’t have to respond at the same time.” Those sorts of things can make a really big difference.

So, I want to hear some final tips from you, Camilla, in a second, about what folks can do, actionable things that they can take away. But before we do, Amanda, what’s your takeaway?

Amanda Raad: I have a lot of takeaways. But one of them is that 10-6 isn’t necessarily best for everyone, which is really too bad because I’ve been trying to force my partner into this for a long time.

No, I think mostly just how important it is that we actually talk about this more and make more space for it. Because, you know, sleep is one of those things that impacts everything. And I don’t think we spend enough time thinking about how we can help people show up their best and be the best they can be. So hugely important, really, really grateful. What about you, Richard?

Richard Bistrong: If we continue where this all brings us, we think about behaviors on this podcast, we think about workplace culture, we think about ethical conduct and how being and working in sync with our own body rhythms, there’s the science behind all of this in how it leads also to better decision-making, better cultures.

So, Camilla, you have started a movement, and I appreciate it takes a lot of little steps to get there. So, I’m going to try to bring it to one sound bite, and that is we could all be time architect leaders. We can all move that a little bit forward. And I think that’s a great source of future responsibility and action. So, thank you, Camilla.

Nitish Upadhyaya: For me, folks will either grumble and say, “Oh gosh, another thing I have to bear in mind,” right? You know, with neurodiversity, with other things, or, “I want to have a flexible team with what I want to do.” But the flip side of it is, what an opportunity.

What a great way to supercharge your teams working all over the globe, doing amazing things, and giving them a chance to see that you hear them and that you see them. And off the back of that, you end up with great work product, people that have better well-being and ultimately, it does better for your organization. So, thanks for sharing the research and the papers about what happens when it doesn’t go so well, but also the opportunities that we have by leaning into this even just a little bit. And on that, Camilla, I’d love to get your final takeaways for our audience.

You know, even smaller than small, what can they be doing? I know you’ve given us so many tips and a wealth of wisdom. But if they only hear one thing, if they were listening to this, you know, podcast early in the morning and they’re actually a late chronotype so they’re not taking very much in, what do you say to them?

Camilla Kring: I will say that they should get out before it’s too late. It’s so important to get out and get the daylight. Some people wake up, then they never go out or just sit near to a window. When we talk about our sleep quality and get the most out of our sleep, we need to have contrast between darkness and light. And it’s not enough to be indoors. So that will be the first thing.

And then a second thing, also, you know how you mentioned neurodiversity, research shows that, for example, people with ADHD, up to 78% are more late chronotypes. So there’s also a link between neurodiversity and chronodiversity. Ludmila Praslova and I, we just created an article for Fast Company about neurodiversity and chronodiversity. So, there are also a lot of things that are linked.

It’s about creating a flexible work culture. I think also Ludmila said flexible work culture is also an inclusive work culture. So maybe not looking at, “Well, then you have people with neurodiversity and chronodiversity and family diversity,” but be more curious about how can we be who we are when people can be in their own rhythm. As Hamlet said, “To be or not to be,”{ here in Denmark. It’s about that we can be who we are and be in our own rhythm. And in my opinion, rhythm is our starting point.

Miles Davis said, “Sometimes it takes a long time to sound like yourself.” But I hope when people are listening right now, hopefully they will start to sound a little bit more like themselves.

Nitish Upadhyaya: What a call to action, and what a place to leave it. Thank you so much, Camilla, for your stories, the research that you’ve shared. I suspect there are going to be lots of people queuing up to find out more about your work. Where can they do so?

Camilla Kring: The first step is that you can, for example, link up with me on LinkedIn, Camilla Kring. I also have a newsletter. I have Super Navigators that come. So, I think that would be the two steps. And you can read Chronoleadership if you want.

Nitish Upadhyaya: Well, thank you so much. We’re looking forward to seeing more of your research and ideas coming out, and I certainly am going to be trying to think about how I can adopt some of those into my day-to-day. We didn’t talk about what happens if you’re a chronically sleep-deprived parent, but maybe for another day.

Camilla Kring: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure to be here.

Nitish Upadhyaya: Thank you all for tuning in to the latest episode in our Culture and Compliance Chronicles series. For more information about our series and any of the ideas discussed today, take a look at the links in our show notes. You can also subscribe to the series wherever you regularly listen to podcasts, including on Apple and Spotify. Amanda, Richard, and I will be back very soon for our next chapter.

If you have topics you’d like us to cover or novel perspectives you want everyone else to hear about, get in touch. Thanks again for listening, have a wonderful day, and stay curious.

 

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Show Notes:

• Camilla Kring's Book: Chronoleadership
• Camilla Kring's Biography
• Fast Company Article: “The Hidden Trap Of Being A Morning Person”
• Fast Company Article: “How To Design Your Ideal Work Day When You’re A Night Owl”